What happens when believers and non-believers die? Calling all Annihilationists, Traditionalists, etc.

ShepBook2 · 5 days

Here are a few, anyway.

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

ShepBook2 · 5 days

Yes, there are two different intermediary places. I think the non-believer is tormented to a certain extent already. In the story of Lazarus, the rich man was already in torment. Note that this story of Lazarus was set before the end of time. I actually think Jesus presented it as a factual happening, not as a parable.

I believe the new earth refers to heaven.

I'm not sure how to characterize the torment experienced by the non-believer. The Bible speaks of a lake of fire and a bottomless pit. In the most impressive sermon I heard on the topic, the minister described the state of a lost soul forever falling, forever alone, through pitch blackness and unbearable heat. I do, however, believe that the worst torment would be the eternal separation from God.

One thing though. There are many things I don't know about the end times, but I do have faith that God will care for his own.

ShepBook2 · 5 days

OK. I'm not exactly sure on the fine details, but here goes.

The believer dies. His body is buried. His soul goes to some intermediary place (paradise or "under the altar") to wait for Judgement Day. His soul is conscious at this time.

The non-believer dies, and his body is buried. His conscious soul goes to an intermediary place (Hades) to wait for judgement.

At some point in the future, God declares that time shall be no more. Both the believer and the non-believer are resurrected (in some bodily form, but not exactly sure here) and must stand before God for judgement.

The believer is accepted by God and passes into heaven to experience eternal bliss and communion with God.

The non-believer is rejected by God and passes into hell to experience eternal torment and separation from God.

I believe the view that there exists a certain intermediary resting place for souls is supported by mention of seeing saints under the altar in Revelations, and also by the story of Lazarus the leper and the rich man.

To clarify, I do not believe there is any second chance after death. Where the tree falls, so shall it lie.

AnticScarab3 · 15 days

Why do you say so? It looks to me like it has.

AnticScarab3 · 15 days

The commandment against homosexual activity is treated the same way as adultery. Homosexual lust is a sin.

Slavery from neighboring countries teaches us that ungodly living leads to spiritual slavery.

Murder = hate Adultery = adulterous lust Theft = covetousness

AnticScarab3 · 15 days

Some of the Old Testament laws are easily translated into spiritual virtues, especially the moral laws. Yes, I believe the other laws have an extra level of meaning.

AnticScarab3 · 15 days

John 18:36 "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

Jeremiah 31:33 "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. "

Matthew 5:28 " But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

In my opinion, the Old Testament dietary laws teach us the concept of clean and unclean, or right and wrong. Today, the spiritual application of these dietary laws should lead us to refuse to partake in anything that is is sinful, no matter how tempting or innocent it seems.

The fabric law teaches us that we cannot live a blended life, with some righteous Christian attitudes and some sinful, worldly attitudes.

AnticScarab3 · 15 days

The entire law has been moved from external actions to internal thoughts. Where before it was wrong to commit adultery, now it is wrong to lust. Where before it was wrong to kill, now it is wrong to hate. The law has not passed away. If anything, it has become more restrictive by moving into our hearts.

morganisawesome · 17 days

The soul does not necessarily make up that part if our personality that is damaged. The soul is that part of us that is eternal and identifies with God.

micaminoff · 17 days

John 18:36 "Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

Jeremiah 31:33 "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. "

Matthew 5:28 " But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

morganisawesome · 17 days

Yep. Every worldview contains presuppositions that cannot be determined logically. Christianity is no exception.

micaminoff · 17 days

But you misunderstand. It is not our adherence to his law, but the sincerity of our desire to adhere that determines our fate.

micaminoff · 17 days

Yes, it is more restrictive, and instead of sin being defined as outward actions, it is now found in our thoughts.

In the case of the Sabbath, I think we need to set aside all days as special days for the Lord now, not just one out of seven. Or it might mean that we observe the Sabbath by applying our thoughts towards God in a special way every seventh day. I'm not sure.

About stoning disobedient children, stoning represents spiritual death. This law tells us that as children, we must treat our parents with utmost respect and obedience. If we repeatedly sin in this and fail to repent, this will result in spiritual death (we will be condemned to hell). Thankfully, Jesus died in our place, so if we acknowledge his death for us, we will be saved.

micaminoff · 18 days

I would understand this to mean, together with other scriptures, that Jesus has taken the old law and placed it into our hearts. When the law sais don't kill, now we must not hate. When the law said don't commit adultery, now we must not lust.

morganisawesome · 18 days

The way I understand the soul, it does not comprise a person's entire being, but rather exists in conjunction with the body and the spirit.

I have no argument and no evidence for you. I know it exists through personal experience and faith. For you to gain the same knowledge, you would have to find it through personal experience.

morganisawesome · 18 days

The soul is the supernatural part of your person. It is by definition undetectable by scientific means.

Axxerand · 20 days

I could spend a lot of time listing all the myriad reasons why Christianity seems right, but if you've spent time discussing with Christians, you've probably heard most of them. Ultimately it all boils down to this. My relationship with God is a mystical, supernatural experience that is ultimately impossible to explain to someone who has not experienced the same. It is this experience that convinces me that the Bible is true.

Axxerand · 20 days

How do I know it's the Holy Spirit? Honestly, I don't always know. I have followed what I thought was the Holy Spirit only to find out that I had deceived myself. The Bible says that if a spirit does not confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, it is not the spirit of God. I know it is the Holy Spirit because the leading I get lines up with the Bible and with my brethren. I know this Spirit helps me be Christlike because I have experienced His power in my life, enabling me to come out of a life of lies, immorality and shame to a clean, pure walk before God.

Axxerand · 20 days

Yes, many people who claim to be Christians are not. This is scriptural. Most of them are either lying or misguided. You will only be able to seek out the true people of God by study and prayer. Acquaint yourself with the Holy Spirit and follow him. There is a very real possibility that you to will make mistakes and wrong interpretations along the way.

Aside from all this, though, God has promised that sincerely seeking souls will find Him. He will save us if we have earnestly tried to understand his will. We should be more concerned about being earnest and Christlike than about being right.

Axxerand · 20 days

Although there are different translations of the Bible, the core message and clear teachings remain the same. Find a people who follow all the clear teachings and do not make excuses. In the end, you will have to follow the Holy Spirit to the right people. Your reasoning cannot take you all the way.

Axxerand · 20 days

Nope, no dietary restrictions as far as I know. Our wearing of the beard is not based primarily on Old Testament law, but rather on acceptance of our bodies as created by God. Wizards, in my understanding, are those who gain supernatural powers through worshipping evil forces. This is very wrong.

Glad_To_Upvote · 20 days

I can try. Keep in mind that is impossible for an non-Christian to fully understand what it means to be Christian, so don't feel bad if you don't understand.

Jesus compares the Holy Spirit to the wind. "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit." (John 3:8) Prophet Elijah had an experience where God showed him that He spoke with a "still, small voice". (1 Kings 19:12) The presence of the Holy Spirit is a mystical, supernatural feeling or knowledge. You have probably seen the cartoons of someone with an angel whispering in one ear and the devil whispering in the other. Remove the audible voices and this is really very close to what it feels like. When I first gave my heart to Christ, I felt a sense of jubilation and peace wash over me like never before. Another time in my early twenties, during a time of spiritual crisis, I committed myself to consulting the Holy Spirit for every decision I made, no matter how small, until I could find spiritual peace again. I made this commitment while kneeling beside my bed. Almost immediately, I sensed an almost audible voice telling me to relax and go to bed. In the morning, as soon as I awoke, I again knelt and asked the Spirit what I should do that day. Once again, I sensed the voice giving me direction. This continued until I was led through to peace with God again. When I read my Bible, I often feel a special warmth in my heart, and I also sense an understanding of scripture that surpasses my intellectual reasoning. Other times, when I speak in church, I find that my words are being given to me by the Holy Spirit. It's hard to "see" or "understand" the Holy Spirit, just like we can't see the wind, but it's much easier to see the effect the wind has on things. Just the same, we can see the effect the Holy Spirit has on people.

Axxerand · 20 days

You are correct. I truly do believe that my denomination has correctly proven and interpreted the doctrine of the Bible, and I believe that many other churches I see are teaching things that are false. This does not mean that these people are lost. If someone earnestly tries to interpret scripture and mistakenly makes a different interpretation than me, God accepts his earnestness. There is a very real possibility that I am the one who is mistaken. However, I can relax in the knowledge that I have done what I could in following the Holy Spirit, and God accepts my pitiful endeavours.

I am a member of the Church of God in Christ, Mennonite. You can find our website at http://www.churchofgodinchristmennonite.net/.

Axxerand · 20 days

Actually, according to a true Christian interpretation, all the scriptures are in agreement.

And, yes, absolutely, everyone that becomes a Christian must come to a point of "hating" his family, friends and his own life and any other ties to this world. We must be willing to give it all up for God's sake. At the same time, Christ's love must fill our hearts and spill out to everyone around us. This may be difficult for a non-spiritual person to understand, but it might help if you consider the many nuances of meaning that the words "love" and "hate" can have.

Secondly, true love will be willing to sacrifice warm, fuzzy feelings for the well-being of a friend. I have had true friends rebuke me for sins, give me unwanted advice, and really be quite hard on me at times. On the other hand, trying to shock people into repentence will never really work, and "God Hates Fags" is a patently false statement. Lying and kidnapping are vile sins, and Christians must never be guilty of these things.

Axxerand · 20 days

Yes, of course it's subjective. I wouldn't expect anyone to accept Christianity or prove the truth or the true way to live by purely logical means. That would be contrary to Christian beliefs. It is impossible for someone with a non-spiritual mind to fully understand Christianity.

1 Corinthians 1:27 "But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; "

weeping_prophet

TROPHY CASE

weeping_prophet

TROPHY CASE

you'll need to login or register to do that

create a new account

login